Is the clutch safety switch still plugged in? On my winter beater 1g it would do that unless I really mashed the clutch pedal down sometimes so I unhooked it like my other 1g. Don’t know if it’s the switch itself or the pedal assembly or what, cars a rotted out piece of shit so I don’t care to look further into it.

Probably a POS autozone starter or something. Best thing I ever bought was a high quality Bosch starter. Doesn’t matter if yours tests good. The starter is telling you it’s bad (assuming there isn’t some weird wiring/relay) issue.

Vegas Smith said:

Probably a POS autozone starter or something. Best thing I ever bought was a high quality Bosch starter. Doesn’t matter if yours tests good. The starter is telling you it’s bad (assuming there isn’t some weird wiring/relay) issue.

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Not to thread jack but I was wondering about them as all the starters I have show their age, going to make the move on one of those for the better 2 of my abominations.

Spleen8urLSX said:

Is the nuetral safety switch still plugged in? On my winter beater 1g it would do that unless I really mashed the clutch pedal down sometimes so I unhooked it like my other 1g. Don’t know if it’s the switch itself or the pedal assembly or what, cars a rotted out piece of shit so I don’t care to look further into it.

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clutch switch is disabled from the previous owner

Vegas Smith said:

Probably a POS autozone starter or something. Best thing I ever bought was a high quality Bosch starter. Doesn’t matter if yours tests good. The starter is telling you it’s bad (assuming there isn’t some weird wiring/relay) issue.

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I did replace it with a remanufactured one and the first on I got was bad out of the box the second one tested good on their machine, but I don't really trust it because it's doing the exact same thing when the starter was bad, I replaced the relay under the dash, and it still does the same thing so I'm assuming the relay is still good.

I went through 2 brand new starters from ebay in 6 months (luckily the seller had a warranty and the part new was $57)

The electrical test on car just tests amp draw, if the starter motor is weak and binding it wont show fail on the test.

So I would replace it again. If you want to be thorough you can take it off the car and have them bench test the starter, and a new one, and most likely there will be an audible difference in motor speed.

onto the tuning aspect, my WB goes crazy when at idle ad theres some other thing that seem kind odd. i havent had the time to get it tested for a boost leak. if anyone with tuning experience can take a look i would appreciate it.

Spleen8urLSX said:

Not to thread jack but I was wondering about them as all the starters I have show their age, going to make the move on one of those for the better 2 of my abominations.

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Yeah I'm all thumbs up for the Bosch New starter that's been on my car since 2013. Hope they are still that good. Current part number is the same, SR298N. Price has only gone up a little. From NAPA now it's $215. In 2013, also from NAPA, it was $170.

It might not be the OP's actual problem though. I might have had a problem with the starter leg in the ignition switch on my car. Not sure. But I bypassed it (and the starter relay) with my own circuit with a starter button. And that's when I actually quit having problems with my start system. Also, if the person's car has a previously installed alarm system, they sometimes have a starter circuit interrupt of some kind, don't they? And that could mess up.

What specific wideband do you have? The switchpoint of 2.63v does make sense for the innovate widebands. Your isc needs to be set correctly along with a boost leak test.

Vegas Smith said:

What specific wideband do you have? The switchpoint of 2.63v does make sense for the innovate widebands. Your isc needs to be set correctly along with a boost leak test.

Dsm Idle Control | Six Sigma Dyno Tuning | United States

DSM Idle control by Six Sigma Tuning

www.sixsigmatuning.com

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ik its an innovate not sure the exact one.

Update on the starter issue, I believe it's gotta abe. Bad ground or bad connection somewhere the battery was relocated by a previous owner and they have the negative terminal cable running to the chassis and then from the chassis to the starter mounting bolt I've heard some people say to run it straight from the terminal to the mounting bolt, I'm looking for anything that will help, I've replaced the starter three times and this one was tested three times at oriellys i voltage on the starter while cranking and it doesnt drop below 11v ive read multiple threads but havent found a solution

Two ground cables from the battery, one to the firewall and one to the starter mounting bolt.

We're on Boost said:

Yeah I'm all thumbs up for the Bosch New starter that's been on my car since 2013. Hope they are still that good. Current part number is the same, SR298N. Price has only gone up a little. From NAPA now it's $215. In 2013, also from NAPA, it was $170.

It might not be the OP's actual problem though. I might have had a problem with the starter leg in the ignition switch on my car. Not sure. But I bypassed it (and the starter relay) with my own circuit with a starter button. And that's when I actually quit having problems with my start system. Also, if the person's car has a previously installed alarm system, they sometimes have a starter circuit interrupt of some kind, don't they? And that could mess up. the starter for a third time and im having the same issue

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Warrantied the starter for a third time and its having the same problem i would think there has to be a bad ground somewhere, i have power to the starter and the starter clicks/engages but doesnt spin so wouldnt that mean the ignition is fine?, ive had it bench tested and it seemed fine, im not sure whats going on with it but the investigation continues...

93 talon tsi awd said:

Warrantied the starter for a third time and its having the same problem i would think there has to be a bad ground somewhere, i have power to the starter and the starter clicks/engages but doesnt spin so wouldnt that mean the ignition is fine?, ive had it bench tested and it seemed fine, im not sure whats going on with it but the investigation continues...

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There is a bypass test you can do that should help you figure this out.
Sometime when the starter is not working, do this test. You need a few feet of stiff electrical wire to do this.
Stiff would be like solid core wire of large gauge like 12 or 14 gauge house wire.
It will be carrying about 30 amps during the test so that is also why it should be a beefy gauge.
The test is basically, with the ignition key turned off so the car doesn't start, put one end of this wire onto the 1/4" wide flat lug that is sticking out of the solenoid on top of the starter. (This is the lug that has the "small" wire on it normally, which is about a 14 gauge wire)
Then jam the other end of the wire into the + battery post. With the trans in neutral of course.
Immediately your starter should crank the engine like crazy.
Do this a couple times to be sure it is repeatable.
If your starter consistently gives a good strong crank in this test, that should mean that your starter is ok, and your grounds are ok.
If the starter doesn't crank some times when you do this test, then either your starter or your grounds are bad.

The part of this test that is a little challenging is giving your test wire a reliable connection onto that 1/4" wide lug on the starter solenoid. If you want, you could put a 1/4" or 3/8" wide female quick connect on one end of your test wire and slide that onto that 1/4" solenoid lug (replacing temporarily the stock wire there). If you do that your test wire wouldn't have to be stiff. It could be stranded. But with stranded wire you can't just jam the other end of it into the battery post. You would need to crimp a copper crimp sleeve onto that end of the wire to hold it together and solid.

When I did this test, my starter cranked the engine very strongly, I was impressed.
It turned out I had one or 2 problems in the car's circuits that are supposed to take that ~30 amps to the 1/4" flat lug on the starter. What I'm calling the "Start" circuit. These problems were weird in that they would show "continuity" but when asked to do their thing with 30 amps, they sometimes wouldn't do it. So I just replaced that entire circuit, all the way from the battery to the starter solenoid, totally bypassing the ignition switch and all the other stuff in the cabin.

When I did that, I had already taken pains to have good grounds, in fact redundant grounds. I replaced both of the starter bolts with new zinc plated bolts (that was Tim Zimmer's suggestion, to avoid the surface corrosion on old bolts). I put ground cables from the battery to both of those bolts instead of just to one.

Your ground system is complicated by having the battery in the trunk. But it should work. I mean, my 2000 BMW 528i has the battery in the trunk by design, the ground cable from the battery goes to one nice big beefy threaded hole in the body structure a few inches away from the battery and that's it for that end of it. I've never disconnected that cable from the body. It's been like that for 24 years now and it still works fine.

Here's a pic, just in case there's any confusion about what I'm calling the 1/4" wide lug on the starter solenoid. It's the flat male terminal labeled "A" in this pic:

I would CLEAN and tighten all the proper grounds and make sure they they are all in place. They are as important as the hot side and people forget about them. Aftermarket starters, meh, hit or miss.

on my 98-99 2g cars the ignition switch would partially fail, the connections internally wouldnt send a strong power signal to the solenoid.

my issue would be the car was all or nothing for the starter, it would start just fine or not start at all.

so there are a few ways to validate that, test for 12v to the small solenoid connector when the key is turned to start, or tap that connection and send 12v to it and see if that solves the dead starter

chrysler kid said:

on my 98-99 2g cars the ignition switch would partially fail, the connections internally wouldnt send a strong power signal to the solenoid.

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Yeah this is one of the things that happened on my car. The Start leg of the ignition switch has a hard life. It carries the entire amount of current (amps) that is used by the coils in the starter solenoid. That's somewhere around 30 amps.
Check it out in this diagram. This is the least confusing diagram I can find of the ones available. It shows that the Start leg of the ignition switch supplies both the coil and the switch in the starter relay. Pretty funny. I would have thought it would only run the coil in the starter relay, and that the switch in the starter relay would get power from a different circuit. But the only model of the car that does it that way is the 2 liter non-turbo with Auto Trans (that diagram also shows our cars but the multiple branches in the diagram are a little confusing).
In this more clear diagram you can see two of the other trouble makers in this circuit. The clutch pedal switch and the starter relay. Most of us bypass those things anyway, especially the clutch pedal switch.

We're on Boost said:

Yeah this is one of the things that happened on my car. The Start leg of the ignition switch has a hard life. It carries the entire amount of current (amps) that is used by the coils in the starter solenoid. That's somewhere around 30 amps.
Check it out in this diagram. This is the least confusing diagram I can find of the ones available. It shows that the Start leg of the ignition switch supplies both the coil and the switch in the starter relay. Pretty funny. I would have thought it would only run the coil in the starter relay, and that the switch in the starter relay would get power from a different circuit. But the only model of the car that does it that way is the 2 liter non-turbo with Auto Trans (that diagram also shows our cars but the multiple branches in the diagram are a little confusing).
In this more clear diagram you can see two of the other trouble makers in this circuit. The clutch pedal switch and the starter relay. Most of us bypass those things anyway, especially the clutch pedal switch.

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Do you happen to have one of those for a 1g, not sure thats gonna be the same for mine. Not that it would be much different anyway

93 talon tsi awd said:

Do you happen to have one of those for a 1g, not sure thats gonna be the same for mine.

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Depends on if you have the factory theft or not.

We're on Boost said:

Yeah this is one of the things that happened on my car. The Start leg of the ignition switch has a hard life. It carries the entire amount of current (amps) that is used by the coils in the starter solenoid. That's somewhere around 30 amps.
Check it out in this diagram. This is the least confusing diagram I can find of the ones available. It shows that the Start leg of the ignition switch supplies both the coil and the switch in the starter relay. Pretty funny. I would have thought it would only run the coil in the starter relay, and that the switch in the starter relay would get power from a different circuit. But the only model of the car that does it that way is the 2 liter non-turbo with Auto Trans (that diagram also shows our cars but the multiple branches in the diagram are a little confusing).
In this more clear diagram you can see two of the other trouble makers in this circuit. The clutch pedal switch and the starter relay. Most of us bypass those things anyway, especially the clutch pedal switch.

You must be logged in to view this image or video.

Click to expand...

Do you happen to have one of those for a 1g, not sure thats gonna be the same for mine. Not that it would be much different any

steve said:

Depends on if you have the factory theft or not.

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Click to expand...

Not sure if it did, i know it doesnt anymore though

93 talon tsi awd said:

Do you happen to have one of those for a 1g

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The one Steve posted for M/T without alarm should do it for you, but I'll go ahead and post the one from the Chilton manual in case it helps you avoid any confusion.
This one does show one other interesting thing - it shows an arrow going "To MFI System". This is the wire that goes to input 108 on the ecu which gives you the KeyStart signal in your logs, which is something that has come up a few times in here.
If you bypass this entire circuit like I did, you have to hook back into this wire "To MFI System" or you lose CrankingFuelAdjust. I had to do that. It was easy fortunately.
This diagram supposedly covers 1991-97 with specific models as noted on the diagram.
Looks like some of the wire colors are different. I imagine the colors in Steve's drawing are the right ones for your 1993.

It does not give you wire gauges, which Steve's does. Steve's also gives some other info, and it shows correctly that there are actually 2 coils in the Starter Solenoid. The Pull-in coil and the Hold-in coil. When you first turn the key to "Start" it energizes both of those coils (windings). That's when you get the ~30 amps going through the circuit. But as far as I know, that usually lasts for only an instant. As soon as the "Contact disc" in the solenoid makes full contact with the 2 big high current terminals to the starter motor, the pull-in coil is supposed to be cut out of the circuit. Then it's only the hold-in coil that is energized for the rest of the time you crank, so current through the ignition switch should be less then.

You can see that one of the solenoid coils goes to ground, the other one goes to the motor. It's the hold-in winding that goes to ground. The pull-in winding goes to the motor until it is bypassed by the contact disc engaging.





And here's what's inside the starter solenoid:

We're on Boost said:

This one does show one other interesting thing - it shows an arrow going "To MFI System". This is the wire that goes to input 108 on the ecu which gives you the KeyStart signal in your logs, which is something that has come up a few times in here.
If you bypass this entire circuit like I did, you have to hook back into this wire "To MFI System" or you lose CrankingFuelAdjust. I had to do that. It was easy fortunately.

Click to expand...

It's unfortunate that the Factory Service Manuals don't always show all the wires connected in every diagram but I suspect they have to do some simplification to aid in readability but sometimes there are just errors.

The wire from the starter relay to the ECU is shown in the MFI circuit diagrams where it feeds to one of the coils for the fuel pump relay and to pin 108 on the ECU. So it tells the ECU that your trying to start the engine and turns on the fuel pump to do so.